End of Dec Meme
Dec. 17th, 2018 08:49 pmDec 17:
daphneblithe Can you say one thing you think canon-oriented fics could do more to explore about Steve & Bucky and their context, either 40s or contemporary?
You know, it depends on what you want out of Steve & Bucky. People want a lot of things out of Steve & Bucky other than what *I* want out of Steve & Bucky, but for me, the thing I really like thinking about is their language, because so many of--not just our words, but like, our linguistic universes, whole word families, postdate them and so wouldn't be in their core vocabulary. So I'm always sort of checking myself! Pop psychology didn't become a big thing until the '50s, so like--yeah, okay, classical psychology, sure, Freud, yes, (so subconscious and unconscious) but the 1930s didn't really use our kind of therapy-speak, they didn't diagnose and medicalize their emotions the way we do: they were sad and angry, not depressed and projecting; "psycho" was a hip word when Hitchcock made Psycho! They also didn't use sociological explanations for everything, which also sort of mainstreams in the 1950s; remember West Side Story, they're still making fun of it: "Hey I got a social disease!" Before that you were just a bum!:D And then all the '60s stuff--you know, far out, freak out, getting your head together, all those sorts of idioms--I try to catch them and stop myself, because I just don't think they'd think in those terms. I'm constantly on ngram viewer (oh <3 <3 ngram viewer!) or googling etymologies to try to--if not get the right words, avoid what feel like the wrong ones. One I nearly used tonight actually--a preview of tonight's not yet finished advent calendar entry!--was va va voom as an admiring descriptor of a woman. Va va voom feels very olde timey to me, but then I was like--wait, no, that's car culture, and sure enough va va voom is 1954, so too fucking late for Bucky's core vocabulary. Where hubba hubba is authentically '20s, as is hot stuff which is what I went with in the end, and oh, god, yes, I am exactly this sort of nerd, I am so sorry. But I love words and words open up, like, whole paradigms of thought; it's how the language tells us about the larger psychological framework of a character that I find interesting!
You know, it depends on what you want out of Steve & Bucky. People want a lot of things out of Steve & Bucky other than what *I* want out of Steve & Bucky, but for me, the thing I really like thinking about is their language, because so many of--not just our words, but like, our linguistic universes, whole word families, postdate them and so wouldn't be in their core vocabulary. So I'm always sort of checking myself! Pop psychology didn't become a big thing until the '50s, so like--yeah, okay, classical psychology, sure, Freud, yes, (so subconscious and unconscious) but the 1930s didn't really use our kind of therapy-speak, they didn't diagnose and medicalize their emotions the way we do: they were sad and angry, not depressed and projecting; "psycho" was a hip word when Hitchcock made Psycho! They also didn't use sociological explanations for everything, which also sort of mainstreams in the 1950s; remember West Side Story, they're still making fun of it: "Hey I got a social disease!" Before that you were just a bum!:D And then all the '60s stuff--you know, far out, freak out, getting your head together, all those sorts of idioms--I try to catch them and stop myself, because I just don't think they'd think in those terms. I'm constantly on ngram viewer (oh <3 <3 ngram viewer!) or googling etymologies to try to--if not get the right words, avoid what feel like the wrong ones. One I nearly used tonight actually--a preview of tonight's not yet finished advent calendar entry!--was va va voom as an admiring descriptor of a woman. Va va voom feels very olde timey to me, but then I was like--wait, no, that's car culture, and sure enough va va voom is 1954, so too fucking late for Bucky's core vocabulary. Where hubba hubba is authentically '20s, as is hot stuff which is what I went with in the end, and oh, god, yes, I am exactly this sort of nerd, I am so sorry. But I love words and words open up, like, whole paradigms of thought; it's how the language tells us about the larger psychological framework of a character that I find interesting!

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Date: 2018-12-18 02:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-12-18 02:50 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-12-18 02:36 am (UTC)But she was a child during the 30s and a teenager in the 40s, so it was totally a word she grew up using! (She used "hot stuff", too).
The one that pulls me totally out of fics is when authors use "trenches" and "trench warfare" to describe WWII. grew up just 20 years after WWII, and there was a very strict demarcation in talking/writing about WWI vs WWII -- WWI = trenches and WWII = foxholes. (I've looked it up, and I guess some trenches were used in WWII, but it was not the primary type of warfare like it had been in WWI. It was a "new", different type of warfare.)
(PS> I, too, love your brain. )
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Date: 2018-12-18 02:50 am (UTC)The stuff that hasn't dated as bad as hubba hubba is the black slang; like, I think it's plausible that Bucky'd heard and used "hip" in the 30s, and hip is still hip!
WORD NERDS UNITE!
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Date: 2018-12-18 02:57 am (UTC)I'd love to see someone do it in fiction, of any kind, but not only would it be a real high-wire act for the writer, very few readers would ever even know they were references.
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Date: 2018-12-18 03:28 am (UTC)Anyways, what I really came in here to say was that there's also the wonderful American Heritage Idiom Dictionary, which can be helpful because ngram viewer doesn't always allow you to filter down for specific expressions or words that won't make it into a dictionary, particularly sex words. I take every opportunity to mention it that I can, it's often been invaluable just for work, but I've loved having it for Stucky fic.
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Date: 2018-12-18 03:46 am (UTC)(no subject)
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From:Valley speak was so formative...
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Date: 2018-12-18 03:46 am (UTC)I agree with others, I love your brain. Thank you for sharing this.
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Date: 2018-12-18 04:03 am (UTC)full stop.
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Date: 2018-12-18 04:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-12-18 04:14 am (UTC)language informs culture and culture informs language
Date: 2018-12-18 04:23 am (UTC)The folks in their 70s probably could barely understand all the new lingo- assuming they spoke English much at all.
Re: language informs culture and culture informs language
Date: 2018-12-18 04:30 am (UTC)Re: language informs culture and culture informs language
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Date: 2018-12-18 08:47 am (UTC)On another note though all the talk of language and names very much reminds me of all the "what kind of nickname is Bucky?" jokes that happen in fics and how absolutely not-shocked I was over it. My great grandparents were born within a couple years of Bucky and my great-grandpa's name was Charles, but a lot of people called him Chuck and EVEN MORE people called him Jake (and sometimes even Papa Jake!) How did he get the name Jake? How does Jake come from Charles? No one knows. Literally, NO ONE knows. I asked as a child and the answer, even from my great grandmother who met him during World War II, was just "Well, that's just what we call him. He's Papa Jake."
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Date: 2018-12-18 01:43 pm (UTC)Also I love the story of Papa Jake. Then again, I do also feel compelled to point out that I am writing on a thread that includes potofsoup, chinashop, and many other people, including myself, "cesperanza" whose names make "Papa Jake" seem like John Smith.
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Date: 2018-12-18 09:37 am (UTC)But I love words and words open up, like, whole paradigms of thought; it's how the language tells us about the larger psychological framework of a character that I find interesting!
This. It's what Tolkien's worlds are based upon. Language, to me, is our way into understanding other historical periods and other cultures. Understand them intimately, the subtleties of thought and feeling, of how people view the world.
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Date: 2018-12-18 12:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-12-18 03:25 pm (UTC)I suspect the hyper-focus on details like this is part of the reason I never finish anything. BUT IT'S SO MUCH FUN.
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Date: 2018-12-18 12:19 pm (UTC)As a non-writer, I have a great appreciation (and fascination!) with the strategies fic writers use to get the tone of beloved characters JUST RIGHT, especially all the meticulous research and subtle details that lend to that authenticity.
As others have said above, it is amazing how the probably unintentional use of modern words and phrases (gross, cool, feels, whatever, etc.) can just pull one right out of a Steve-centric story.
And then there's fic in fandoms like P.G.Wodehouse/Jeeves books, which...I am just utterly AMAZED how some can so closely match the original writing style that, as a reader, it comes across as effortless and natural.
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Date: 2018-12-18 01:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-12-18 04:40 pm (UTC)Also, Imma just drop this here, as the kids say today:
Timeline of Slang Terms for the Vagina: http://timeglider.com/timeline/07f47d6b843da763
Timeline of Slang Terms for the Penis: http://timeglider.com/timeline/194b572e19fd461b
Timeline of Slang Terms for Sexual Intercourse: http://timeglider.com/timeline/f2faf54e9a15080d
Timeline of Slang Terms for Oral and Anal Sex: http://timeglider.com/timeline/4a29b5e38116bfcb
Timeline of Slang Terms for Sex Itself: http://timeglider.com/timeline/962856e2d593150e
Timeline of Slang Terms for Semen, vaginal Secretions, Ejaculation, Orgasm, and Contraception: http://timeglider.com/timeline/f2faf54e9a15080d
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Date: 2018-12-18 05:52 pm (UTC)*hums* My milkshake brings all the editors and copyeditors to the yard...
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Date: 2018-12-18 05:34 pm (UTC)I use etymological tools for research but hadn't used this one (?!!! ikr!!) and it's a glorious find. Amazing! Until now I've been mainly seeking idiomatic glories in the literature of the time, but ngram is a hell of a lot more responsive and practical.
Thanks so much for replying! :) Glorious. Linguistic nerds FTW
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Date: 2018-12-18 08:23 pm (UTC)My dad sometimes described his youthful self as "hep" but not "hip". He also liked to say he was "up with it and couldn't quit it", which I think implied being a good dancer and thus would apply to Bucky, surely.
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Date: 2018-12-19 04:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-12-19 12:23 am (UTC)For instance: my mother looked askance at me (gave me side-eye) when I was reading science fiction novels because to her they were just this side of skeevy. Disreputable. Not what a woman should be reading. This, of course, was based on her reaction to something from an early cheap sci-fi magazine sometime in the 1920s or 1930s -- or possibly to the broadcast of War of the Worlds, which she heard. So, to get around this and update her ideas a little, I read aloud to her while she was ironing: I read "And He Built A Crooked House", by Robert Heinlein.
She loved it. Not just because it had women as characters (where were women in the 1920s and 1930s pulps, I ask you?) but because it was about designing houses and what works and doesn't -- and she'd designed our house. I also read her "Farmer Giles of Ham" so she'd have a sense of Tolkien, and she liked that one too, but it was full of English jokes and she got those already (being Canadian, and with a Welsh Londoner for a father.)
What I have been thinking is how ordinary everyday technology-- the way we live, the things we use to live with -- changed so very little for centuries. You had chaises and phaetons in the Regency era and wagons in the time of Henry V, but they were still pulled by horses. And then you got the Model T and it all started to switch over. Mom was 14 before the village where she lived got electricity with the Rural Electrification Project; she grew up without indoor plumbing, and when Grandma ran a boarding house they were all sharing one bathroom and a lot of chamber pots.
All of which sounds totally alien now, but that was the 1920s and 1930s. One of the cousins on the farm wrote us with great excitement about getting indoor plumbing in about 1960. And it wasn't just Canada. I've read that Washington, D.C., had something like 15,000 outhouses during WWII, which is something absolutely nobody talks about now.
And then to go from that to now, in what... not quite 70 years? With all the language and knowledge that has changed? You were talking up above about people using psychological terms in ordinary speech -- that happened since the late 1980s, outside of universities. Things are not just changing, they're rolling and tumbling and the language with them.
And I look at Bucky and Steve and think of Mom -- they'd be her contemporaries, she'd be a little older (born 1914, died 1992) and I can see this same sort of awe about the changes that she had.
I need to tell you one more language thing that drove me crazy when it used to happen. I would come home from a date (didn't matter who, or where, or what we were doing) and if Dad was home he'd ask me, "So, how did you make out?" And what he meant was, did you have a good time, was the movie ok, how was the food at the place you went, etc. But what I *heard* was asking how far I'd gone with the guy sexually -- and I guarantee you, that was not what Dad was asking, though it might have been subtext so far down that he didn't realize it. But I used to giggle when I answered, and he never understood why. It is just such a 1940s way of speech.
See what happens? You get language talk going, and it bounces into my mind and all sorts of things fall out.
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Date: 2018-12-19 04:17 pm (UTC)2) I'm laughing about your making out becuase we still use that phrase in your dad's sense--"make out" seems to me the retro '70s usage," whereas "how did you make out?" for "how did the thing go?" seems a totally normal NY usage to me!!
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