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[personal profile] cesperanza
Dec 17: [personal profile] daphneblithe Can you say one thing you think canon-oriented fics could do more to explore about Steve & Bucky and their context, either 40s or contemporary?

You know, it depends on what you want out of Steve & Bucky. People want a lot of things out of Steve & Bucky other than what *I* want out of Steve & Bucky, but for me, the thing I really like thinking about is their language, because so many of--not just our words, but like, our linguistic universes, whole word families, postdate them and so wouldn't be in their core vocabulary. So I'm always sort of checking myself! Pop psychology didn't become a big thing until the '50s, so like--yeah, okay, classical psychology, sure, Freud, yes, (so subconscious and unconscious) but the 1930s didn't really use our kind of therapy-speak, they didn't diagnose and medicalize their emotions the way we do: they were sad and angry, not depressed and projecting; "psycho" was a hip word when Hitchcock made Psycho! They also didn't use sociological explanations for everything, which also sort of mainstreams in the 1950s; remember West Side Story, they're still making fun of it: "Hey I got a social disease!" Before that you were just a bum!:D And then all the '60s stuff--you know, far out, freak out, getting your head together, all those sorts of idioms--I try to catch them and stop myself, because I just don't think they'd think in those terms. I'm constantly on ngram viewer (oh <3 <3 ngram viewer!) or googling etymologies to try to--if not get the right words, avoid what feel like the wrong ones. One I nearly used tonight actually--a preview of tonight's not yet finished advent calendar entry!--was va va voom as an admiring descriptor of a woman. Va va voom feels very olde timey to me, but then I was like--wait, no, that's car culture, and sure enough va va voom is 1954, so too fucking late for Bucky's core vocabulary. Where hubba hubba is authentically '20s, as is hot stuff which is what I went with in the end, and oh, god, yes, I am exactly this sort of nerd, I am so sorry. But I love words and words open up, like, whole paradigms of thought; it's how the language tells us about the larger psychological framework of a character that I find interesting!

Date: 2018-12-18 02:24 am (UTC)
rhysiana: Iris Triwing Temari stitched by me (Default)
From: [personal profile] rhysiana
It's official: I am in love with your brain. These are exactly the kinds of things I care about.

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Date: 2018-12-18 02:36 am (UTC)
emyrys: This is my default (Default)
From: [personal profile] emyrys
I still remember one time when my Mom was talking with one of her friends and said "hubba hubba". I was a kid, it was the '60s, and I thought it was the funniest thing I ever heard and fell down laughing.

But she was a child during the 30s and a teenager in the 40s, so it was totally a word she grew up using! (She used "hot stuff", too).

The one that pulls me totally out of fics is when authors use "trenches" and "trench warfare" to describe WWII. grew up just 20 years after WWII, and there was a very strict demarcation in talking/writing about WWI vs WWII -- WWI = trenches and WWII = foxholes. (I've looked it up, and I guess some trenches were used in WWII, but it was not the primary type of warfare like it had been in WWI. It was a "new", different type of warfare.)

(PS> I, too, love your brain. )

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Date: 2018-12-18 02:57 am (UTC)
sara: S (Default)
From: [personal profile] sara
My mother's parents used to communicate with set phrases...it was not until I was well into adulthood, listening to a bunch of 1930s radio dramas on CDs during a road trip, that I realized they had spent fifty years doing the Depression-era equivalent of communicating largely in Simpsons quotes.

I'd love to see someone do it in fiction, of any kind, but not only would it be a real high-wire act for the writer, very few readers would ever even know they were references.

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Date: 2018-12-18 02:58 am (UTC)
dhrachth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dhrachth
I truly appreciate all the time you spend on ngram viewer. I might not specifically catch that something olde timey isn't the right olde timey, but getting the language right is a big part of the feel.

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Date: 2018-12-18 03:00 am (UTC)
alyndra: (let me read)
From: [personal profile] alyndra
I love this post deeply! ♥

Date: 2018-12-18 03:04 am (UTC)
desireearmfeldt: Ellen and Geoffrey with Feet (feet)
From: [personal profile] desireearmfeldt
<3

Date: 2018-12-18 03:20 am (UTC)
lyrithim: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyrithim
Oh wow huh I knew the ngram viewer was a thing that existed but haven't thought to use it for fic research!

Date: 2018-12-18 03:26 am (UTC)
beradan: Icon: image of Captain America taken from the comic book Captain America: The Fighting Avenger (Default)
From: [personal profile] beradan
Being this sort of nerd (well, that and not having much in the way of plot ideas) is why I'm a fic *enabler* rather than a fic *writer.*

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Date: 2018-12-18 03:28 am (UTC)
gwyn: (bucky & steve alley purple)
From: [personal profile] gwyn
I know we've discussed this before in person, but this is my biggest problem with being in a historical period fandom. It causes me pain. I think the worst one for me is "gross." It made me cringe in what is probably the most popular fic in the fandom, Bucky basically waking up in the 21st century and using the word "gross" to mean disgusting. Augh.

Anyways, what I really came in here to say was that there's also the wonderful American Heritage Idiom Dictionary, which can be helpful because ngram viewer doesn't always allow you to filter down for specific expressions or words that won't make it into a dictionary, particularly sex words. I take every opportunity to mention it that I can, it's often been invaluable just for work, but I've loved having it for Stucky fic.

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Valley speak was so formative...

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Date: 2018-12-18 03:34 am (UTC)
toujours_nigel: Greek, red-figure Rhea (Default)
From: [personal profile] toujours_nigel
I've always loved the language in your fic, which feels very anchoring and differentiating. I was rereading the 4 Minute Window series, and the whole bit where Steve says Peggy was hubba hubba and Natasha is cracking up and Steve is indignant and bewildered is ♥

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Date: 2018-12-18 03:46 am (UTC)
green: colorful winter soldier in his mask with a focus on the red star on his arm (mcu: winter soldier)
From: [personal profile] green
This is fascinating and like. Okay, my favorite character in my fandom was in a coma for 6 years and sometimes I'm catching myself on what pop culture he'd be up to date with and what not, but you... you've REALLY got to watch it lol

I agree with others, I love your brain. Thank you for sharing this.

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Date: 2018-12-18 03:56 am (UTC)
killabeez: (Default)
From: [personal profile] killabeez
I love this! I have a lot of fun with that in writing Immortals, too—especially when they are shown in canon to not really move rapidly with the times (like Cory Raines, Nick Lea's character). There's also just something really fun about hearing idioms and out-of-fashion ideas come out of the mouths of characters that look young and modern.

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Date: 2018-12-18 04:03 am (UTC)
lapin_agile: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lapin_agile
ngram viewer rocks.

full stop.

Date: 2018-12-18 04:14 am (UTC)
potofsoup: (Default)
From: [personal profile] potofsoup
YES TO ALL OF THIS <3 <3 <3
auresse: art by kirsten fox. a compass in celtic style (Default)
From: [personal profile] auresse
This is such an engaging topic! I love lexicon, and linguistic context. I'll be the Catholics had their own phrases and curses and the Jews had theirs. Language drifts between generations too- so if you took a snap shot of pre-war NYC, you'd have your youngsters using the 'latest' jargon and their parents using slang from their own youth. I imagine code-switching was Very common in urban environments.
The folks in their 70s probably could barely understand all the new lingo- assuming they spoke English much at all.

Date: 2018-12-18 08:47 am (UTC)
stevergrsno: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stevergrsno
This makes me want to nerd out over language and try to incorporate it in fic, but I always worry about a sort of Tiffany Effect type thing happening. Historical accuracy is hard! On one hand I'm always tempted to go into research holes to be as historically accurate as possible, and on the other I'm equally as tempted to accept that most people (myself included!) have a certain idea of how people lived/talked/behaved and embrace it. Sometimes embracing it wins because of sheer laziness/a tendency to never actually write what I'm intending to write if I fall into research holes.

On another note though all the talk of language and names very much reminds me of all the "what kind of nickname is Bucky?" jokes that happen in fics and how absolutely not-shocked I was over it. My great grandparents were born within a couple years of Bucky and my great-grandpa's name was Charles, but a lot of people called him Chuck and EVEN MORE people called him Jake (and sometimes even Papa Jake!) How did he get the name Jake? How does Jake come from Charles? No one knows. Literally, NO ONE knows. I asked as a child and the answer, even from my great grandmother who met him during World War II, was just "Well, that's just what we call him. He's Papa Jake."

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Date: 2018-12-18 09:37 am (UTC)
vaysh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] vaysh
This is better than any newspaper I could read in the morning, none are so intelligent and interesting. :)

But I love words and words open up, like, whole paradigms of thought; it's how the language tells us about the larger psychological framework of a character that I find interesting!
This. It's what Tolkien's worlds are based upon. Language, to me, is our way into understanding other historical periods and other cultures. Understand them intimately, the subtleties of thought and feeling, of how people view the world.

Date: 2018-12-18 12:17 pm (UTC)
oulfis: A teacup next to a plate of scones with clotted cream and preserves. (Default)
From: [personal profile] oulfis
Oh, I love this! Rabbit holes like these are so fun to research but also so time consuming. I always get really into names. My one and only Captain America fic was a genderswap, which introduced me to a new pet peeve: basically no one was named Stephanie until the 1940s, and it wasn’t an actually common name until the 1980s. What kind of nice Irish girl born in 1917 would have some newfangled French name like Stephanie? Of course, Steve itself was kind of unusual in the 1910s (ranked #112), and didn’t become popular until the 40s & 50s (right when the comics started) so his mother evidently didn’t follow the crowd, but at least Steven is biblical. I went with Eileen, ranked #107 for girls in 1917 and nicely Irish. But I can spend ages trying to figure out what a background character’s parents would have considered a sensible thing to name them!

Date: 2018-12-18 03:25 pm (UTC)
kiratael: (Sachi)
From: [personal profile] kiratael
But I can spend ages trying to figure out what a background character’s parents would have considered a sensible thing to name them!

I suspect the hyper-focus on details like this is part of the reason I never finish anything. BUT IT'S SO MUCH FUN.

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Date: 2018-12-18 12:19 pm (UTC)
goss: *fangirls* - Starfire Raven (*fangirls* - Starfire Raven)
From: [personal profile] goss
This post was such a joy to read. (And yay for threaded comments and conversation!)

As a non-writer, I have a great appreciation (and fascination!) with the strategies fic writers use to get the tone of beloved characters JUST RIGHT, especially all the meticulous research and subtle details that lend to that authenticity.

As others have said above, it is amazing how the probably unintentional use of modern words and phrases (gross, cool, feels, whatever, etc.) can just pull one right out of a Steve-centric story.

And then there's fic in fandoms like P.G.Wodehouse/Jeeves books, which...I am just utterly AMAZED how some can so closely match the original writing style that, as a reader, it comes across as effortless and natural.

Date: 2018-12-18 01:05 pm (UTC)
anelith: (Default)
From: [personal profile] anelith
One of the joys of the Captain America fandom is that historical aspect when writers strive for accuracy. Heartfelt thanks to you and others who really work at this!

Date: 2018-12-18 04:40 pm (UTC)
the_shoshanna: Merlin, reclining (for the history)
From: [personal profile] the_shoshanna
I love all this sort of thing, and I love reading work by authors who love it!

Also, Imma just drop this here, as the kids say today:

Timeline of Slang Terms for the Vagina: http://timeglider.com/timeline/07f47d6b843da763

Timeline of Slang Terms for the Penis: http://timeglider.com/timeline/194b572e19fd461b

Timeline of Slang Terms for Sexual Intercourse: http://timeglider.com/timeline/f2faf54e9a15080d

Timeline of Slang Terms for Oral and Anal Sex: http://timeglider.com/timeline/4a29b5e38116bfcb

Timeline of Slang Terms for Sex Itself: http://timeglider.com/timeline/962856e2d593150e

Timeline of Slang Terms for Semen, vaginal Secretions, Ejaculation, Orgasm, and Contraception: http://timeglider.com/timeline/f2faf54e9a15080d
Edited (forgot to add the others!) Date: 2018-12-18 04:43 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2018-12-18 05:34 pm (UTC)
daphneblithe: sketch of Bucky Barnes by daphneblithe (Default)
From: [personal profile] daphneblithe
AH Speranza what a joyfully amazing response - I am so glad I dared to ask a question. This is FABULOUS!

I use etymological tools for research but hadn't used this one (?!!! ikr!!) and it's a glorious find. Amazing! Until now I've been mainly seeking idiomatic glories in the literature of the time, but ngram is a hell of a lot more responsive and practical.

Thanks so much for replying! :) Glorious. Linguistic nerds FTW

Date: 2018-12-18 08:23 pm (UTC)
mtoddweb: (captain ameritiel)
From: [personal profile] mtoddweb
I was thinking about this issue in terms of Steve and Bucky's knowledge of popular culture, after reading your latest Advent chapter. They know Bogart because his career started early enough, but Bacall was much younger than Bogey and got her start later, so she's not familiar to them. I hadn't thought about in terms of their vocabulary, but I've thought for a long time that you're the writer who most precisely situates the boys in their proper place and time, partly because you're a New Yorker yourself, partly because you're interested in history and language and getting it right.

My dad sometimes described his youthful self as "hep" but not "hip". He also liked to say he was "up with it and couldn't quit it", which I think implied being a good dancer and thus would apply to Bucky, surely.

Date: 2018-12-19 12:23 am (UTC)
twistedchick: watercolor painting of coffee cup on wood table (Default)
From: [personal profile] twistedchick
This whole set of threads is bouncing around in my mind and zinging off all kinds of language and historical things from my family.

For instance: my mother looked askance at me (gave me side-eye) when I was reading science fiction novels because to her they were just this side of skeevy. Disreputable. Not what a woman should be reading. This, of course, was based on her reaction to something from an early cheap sci-fi magazine sometime in the 1920s or 1930s -- or possibly to the broadcast of War of the Worlds, which she heard. So, to get around this and update her ideas a little, I read aloud to her while she was ironing: I read "And He Built A Crooked House", by Robert Heinlein.

She loved it. Not just because it had women as characters (where were women in the 1920s and 1930s pulps, I ask you?) but because it was about designing houses and what works and doesn't -- and she'd designed our house. I also read her "Farmer Giles of Ham" so she'd have a sense of Tolkien, and she liked that one too, but it was full of English jokes and she got those already (being Canadian, and with a Welsh Londoner for a father.)

What I have been thinking is how ordinary everyday technology-- the way we live, the things we use to live with -- changed so very little for centuries. You had chaises and phaetons in the Regency era and wagons in the time of Henry V, but they were still pulled by horses. And then you got the Model T and it all started to switch over. Mom was 14 before the village where she lived got electricity with the Rural Electrification Project; she grew up without indoor plumbing, and when Grandma ran a boarding house they were all sharing one bathroom and a lot of chamber pots.

All of which sounds totally alien now, but that was the 1920s and 1930s. One of the cousins on the farm wrote us with great excitement about getting indoor plumbing in about 1960. And it wasn't just Canada. I've read that Washington, D.C., had something like 15,000 outhouses during WWII, which is something absolutely nobody talks about now.

And then to go from that to now, in what... not quite 70 years? With all the language and knowledge that has changed? You were talking up above about people using psychological terms in ordinary speech -- that happened since the late 1980s, outside of universities. Things are not just changing, they're rolling and tumbling and the language with them.

And I look at Bucky and Steve and think of Mom -- they'd be her contemporaries, she'd be a little older (born 1914, died 1992) and I can see this same sort of awe about the changes that she had.

I need to tell you one more language thing that drove me crazy when it used to happen. I would come home from a date (didn't matter who, or where, or what we were doing) and if Dad was home he'd ask me, "So, how did you make out?" And what he meant was, did you have a good time, was the movie ok, how was the food at the place you went, etc. But what I *heard* was asking how far I'd gone with the guy sexually -- and I guarantee you, that was not what Dad was asking, though it might have been subtext so far down that he didn't realize it. But I used to giggle when I answered, and he never understood why. It is just such a 1940s way of speech.

See what happens? You get language talk going, and it bounces into my mind and all sorts of things fall out.



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